Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Forum for Subaru XT and/or XT6 owners

Moderators: Hocrest, Myxalplyx, Huck369, Moodybluesr, grossgary, john in KY, SUBBYRU89, austinXT6

Re: Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Postby Huck369 on Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:12 pm

Well....either it's not engagingly into the flywheel ...or...the flywheel is missing some teeth right there...
You can pull the starter back off and see if the teeth look OK in that area...or try to roate the flywheel some by using socket on the front crank pulley bolt then try it again.

You just need to move up here so I could swing by and help out :)

Give me a call if you want to pick my brain..
Huck
Subaru Ambassador
88 XT6 5-Speed(Project Car)
08 Outback Wagon
92 SVX LS-Tour (Yellow AWD 5-Speed)
09 Forester X Premium
The Creator of FrankenWedge
User avatar
Huck369
Moderator
 
Posts: 15559
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:34 am
Location: Somerset, KY

Re: Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Postby Fury on Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:49 pm

Austin,
Just make sure that the spade connectors are REALLY clean. Spray the inside of the spade connector with contact cleaner. If that doesn't help, check the voltage at that point.

For some reason, the spade on the back of my starter is corroding and doing the same thing. I have to clean it every month or so, as my battery power isn't right up there, and every little thing is affecting a voltage drop. The click click deal, is generally not enough voltage for the solenoid to throw out, and anything associated - like a sticky solenoid, slightly mismatched or dirty contacts or lower voltage will cause this.

Good luck with it.
Chris'88 WR XT AX7 Turbo 4WD, 5 speed,
Full EJ20T WRX Running gear,
Full 3" exhaust. Jap spec ECU, TMIC,
Gen III GT brakes + Eibach coilovers 5 lug swap & kit(http://www.crossbredperformance.com) with 17"STI rims... and other great stuff
User avatar
Fury
Guru
 
Posts: 2210
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:05 am
Location: 1hr Nth of Sydney, Australia

Re: Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Postby austinXT6 on Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:52 pm

Oh boy - I hope the flywheel isn't missing teeth! :shock:

Okay, that sounds like a plan.

Huck wrote:You can pull the starter back off and see if the teeth look OK in that area..


That definitely would tell me if it's the flywheel or not. If the teeth are there in that spot, then it's definitely not the flywheel. But I'm not sure if I'll be able to see in where the teeth meet the starter, since that part of the starter sort of goes inside the bell housing. :?

Huck also wrote:or try to roate the flywheel some by using socket on the front crank pulley bolt then try it again.


I think this is going to have to do. If I rotate it just an inch or so, and try the starter and it works then I'll know it's probably a bad flywheel, and I can continue with a full rotation inspection to be certain.

If all the teeth are there, then I'm suspecting it's a bad starter. I'm sort of expecting it to be the starter since for a few weeks before it stopped working I was getting the click-click syndrome but it would crank right upafter a few tries (like 2 or 3). Then one day I took my daughter to school, shut the car off, and when I tried to start it again I got the familiar click-click, only this time no matter what I tried it still wouldn't turn over. I had to have it towed to my house.

The fact that the starter is spinning though makes me think it's definitely not the ignition lock wire... it's definitely getting juice when I turn the key. So at least THAT much is eliminated. So I think either the flywheel is missing teeth suddenly (and there was no noise or grinding or other indications prior to having it stop working), OR, the first starter was just plain "bad" and the one I replaced it with has a central shaft that's spinning but not pushing out the little gear towards the flywheel.

Still, I need to start with the flywheel inspection. If that's bad then there's no way I'm going to drive the car down the street, much less to the Dragon. :(
User avatar
austinXT6
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5079
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:00 pm
Location: Jacksonville, FL

Re: Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Postby austinXT6 on Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:57 pm

Chris wrote:Just make sure that the spade connectors are REALLY clean. Spray the inside of the spade connector with contact cleaner. If that doesn't help, check the voltage at that point.


I "sort of" cleaned the contact at the spade connector, but not really. I'll give it a good cleaning and try that too. Also check the voltage at the wire there. Good advice and I hope it's just that simple - thanks, Chris!
User avatar
austinXT6
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5079
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:00 pm
Location: Jacksonville, FL

Re: Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Postby Hocrest on Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:07 pm

advanceautozone will check starters for you. Take them both in just to ID the problem or rule that out.
Dave
-86 Brat ~ Rebecca
-92 SVX LS-L ~ Princess
-03 Baja ~ OutBrat
User avatar
Hocrest
Veteran
 
Posts: 2417
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:02 pm
Location: Cressona, PA

Re: Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Postby Huck369 on Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:50 pm

Hocrest wrote:advanceautozone will check starters for you. Take them both in just to ID the problem or rule that out.

Good ideal Dave, definitely good to rule things out that are free to do.
The second starter could have a bad bendex <sp?> and not engagingly the gear into the flywheel, a local starter/alternator rebuild place could fix it up for ya (anyone with a known good starter they can express to Austin so he can bring the XT6 to the Meet? )
Huck
Subaru Ambassador
88 XT6 5-Speed(Project Car)
08 Outback Wagon
92 SVX LS-Tour (Yellow AWD 5-Speed)
09 Forester X Premium
The Creator of FrankenWedge
User avatar
Huck369
Moderator
 
Posts: 15559
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:34 am
Location: Somerset, KY

Re: Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Postby austinXT6 on Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:41 pm

Dave wrote:advanceautozone will check starters for you. Take them both in just to ID the problem or rule that out.


Awesome - I hadn't considered that! I knew they'd check alternators, but I didn't know (or even think of) starters. That was an excellent:

I think
Dave's an
Einstein for suggesting
Autozone!

:D :D :D

Huck wrote:anyone with a known good starter they can express to Austin so he can bring the XT6 to the Meet?


Definitely not necessary, but I appreciate the suggestion. If the starters are bad, I'll order a new one from them overnight or something. I've had too many people send me parts and do really nice things for me - no more of that guys! I definitely appreciate the thought, but "I got this".


-a
User avatar
austinXT6
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5079
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:00 pm
Location: Jacksonville, FL

Re: Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Postby austinXT6 on Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:35 pm

UPDATE:
I took the starter I had removed from the car (not the one I swapped in from my old car) to AutoZone and had them test it twice - perfect both times. You could see the gear get pushed out and everything. So there was no need to test the other one that I had put in yesterday (the one in the video that was making the "free-spinning" noise). So I came home and decided to put that starter back in the car since it was now a "known good" unit. I also took time to clean up the spade contact on the starter and the connector itself... turns out they were pretty fouled with grease/oil. :o

I got it all hooked back up, got the battery charged back up enough, and turned the key. It cranked right up! (It sputtered a bit because it's been sitting for a few weeks while I had the benefit of driving another car, but it eventually smoothed out and ran just fine.) So, this tells me that, because I hadn't moved the flywheel at all and the teeth of the starter gear went in the exact same place they'd come out from, that the teeth on the flywheel are probably 100% intact. I'm still going to check to be sure...

...and here's why:

After I drove it around for about 30 minutes to try to charge the battery, I came home, parked it, shut it off, and then tried to start it again - click-click-click. DAMMIT!!!!! :evil:

So I don't know what to think. When it cranked up, I thought, "Wow! I guess Chris was right and it was just a dirty contact after all!", but unless it was fouled again within 30 minutes of driving that doesn't look like it will be the answer. I haven't had a chance to look yet because a thunderstorm was just starting up when I got home with the car. It's passed now, so I'll head out there after I eat dinner.
User avatar
austinXT6
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5079
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:00 pm
Location: Jacksonville, FL

Re: Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Postby Hocrest on Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:07 pm

Does it click, click, click.... then eventually turn over? Melis's old XT6 and my SVX do that, has nothing to do with the starter. I replaced the ign switch and a relay under the dash on my SVX. It's better, but still occasionaly clicks...
Dave
-86 Brat ~ Rebecca
-92 SVX LS-L ~ Princess
-03 Baja ~ OutBrat
User avatar
Hocrest
Veteran
 
Posts: 2417
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:02 pm
Location: Cressona, PA

Re: Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Postby Huck369 on Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:20 pm

Yeah, make sure that little screw in the back of the ignition switch is tight....I almost forgot about it :oops:
Huck
Subaru Ambassador
88 XT6 5-Speed(Project Car)
08 Outback Wagon
92 SVX LS-Tour (Yellow AWD 5-Speed)
09 Forester X Premium
The Creator of FrankenWedge
User avatar
Huck369
Moderator
 
Posts: 15559
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:34 am
Location: Somerset, KY

Re: Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Postby Fury on Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:11 am

Still comes down to the starter not getting enough amperage to fire it up.

A test is to hot wire it. :shock:

The spade on the rear of the starter connects to a "good 12.7V supply" with at LEAST 10amps
12.2 or less and it will click, or higher voltage with not enough amperage.

You can clip a jump starter lead ( very carefully... :roll: ) making sure it is well isolated on to the exposed spade of the starter. with the ign on, set to dash lights, to hit the other end of the cable to the pos battery. ( will spark and car ry on like a short )

If it still clicks it will be time to go through everything properly. If it throws out and spins, there is a weak link from the relay to the starter.
It could be the relay,
the connections to the relay, ( ie ign to relay, from and to etc)
the "hot feed" to the relay
or the wire from the relay to the starter.
( there are a few more choices, but these are enough to start with :roll: :lol: )

A Discharged battery also may only have a "surface charge" - which is actually very common, and may require an overnight trickle charge of between 3 and 4 amps to start, and 1 or 2 amps for 24 hrs. you should have at least 330 cca crank ability ( which a battery place can check in 30 seconds) called a cranking amps load test.( here anyway...)

a surface charge often occurs after a down voltage battery gets a few hrs charge only. Tops the voltage, without any guts to it...

Also, my Mrs's Toyota Seca,- I put in an auxillary start relay, as it was easier to build a new system, then even to get to the original...

It will get sorted soon :D
Chris'88 WR XT AX7 Turbo 4WD, 5 speed,
Full EJ20T WRX Running gear,
Full 3" exhaust. Jap spec ECU, TMIC,
Gen III GT brakes + Eibach coilovers 5 lug swap & kit(http://www.crossbredperformance.com) with 17"STI rims... and other great stuff
User avatar
Fury
Guru
 
Posts: 2210
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:05 am
Location: 1hr Nth of Sydney, Australia

Re: Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Postby austinXT6 on Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:14 pm

Great info, Chris. Actually I tried jumping the starter at the solenoid poles the very first time it died on me a few weeks back. Just got the click-click thing. Then Huck suggested running a wire from the + terminal of the battery to the - terminal on the starter solenoid. Same thing: click-click-click.

All the suggestions have been excellent so far. The wire on the back of the ignition lock cylinder, the testing of the starter at Autozone, the jumping of the solenoid, and the very basic (but it turns out much needed) cleaning of the spade connector... all of them - great suggestions.

I tried to inspect the flywheel, but there's sort of a plate type thingy in front of it and you can't really see it, but I figured if the car wasn't cranking at the current position, I could simply turn the crank a few degrees and then the flywheel would be positioned differently. So I did that, and tried to start it - click-click-click.

I also considered the neutral safety switch on the auto tranny, but I noticed that it seemed to be doing its job because when the car wasn't in "P" or "N" I didn't even get the click-click-click. So I figured I'd pretty much eliminated just about everything. Then i thought, "Wait a second..."

It turns out it was the very first thing I checked when it happened originally - some loose connection (a short maybe?) between the battery and the starter. I got my 17 year old, Anna, to turn the key while I wiggled the battery cable bundle and the wire that runs off the + cable to the fusible links. The car cranked right up. Shut it off and restarted it several times. WOO HOO!!!! :D

Now, stupidly, I didn't do it in small incremental movements - I just used both hands and started moving the cable bundle a good bit (including the wire that goes to the links). So I'm not 100% certain where the short is, but at least I know it's there. Worst case scenario, I have to get out and wiggle the cables a wee bit to get it to start. Best case scenario - I have tomorrow off from work so I'll try to narrow it down and replace whatever has the short in it.

Oh - and there was one more thing that was probably going to prevent me from making it to the dragon:

My wife has had a serious bout with pancreatitis over the last two weeks. Bad enough that she was in the hospital for about a week and even on a Morphine alternative for a while. She was discharged Friday night but we were awaiting the results of a second MRI that one of the doctors had ordered - he said he saw "a spot" that had him concerned. :shock: Well Monday Maureen called for the results and they said the doctor wanted to see her in his office to discuss it "...and the follow-up steps afterwards..." This had us quietly thinking it was really bad news (pancreatic cancer has a very low survival rate). Today we went in to see him and it turns out it was basically nothing at all on the MRI, and that the "follow up steps" was just what he wanted her to do diet wise, medication wise, and whatnot. It was just how the staff person phrased it, and how we interpreted it.

WHEW!!!!! :D :roll: :D

So that's the best news I've pretty much ever had in my life, and one of the three happiest days...

...plus, I get to go to the Dragon! 8)

Thanks for all the help everybody - if nothing else it got my ignition system a good thorough check up and cleaning, and now I know it's solid (other than the wire). YOU GUYS ROCK!
User avatar
austinXT6
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5079
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:00 pm
Location: Jacksonville, FL

Re: Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Postby Huck369 on Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:17 am

Hate to hear that she's been ill, but glad it was good news on that last visit!
I know Carol was hopeing the she'd come with you to the Dragon, but at least YOU will be there, which is GREAT news (and in an XT too) :mrgreen:
Huck
Subaru Ambassador
88 XT6 5-Speed(Project Car)
08 Outback Wagon
92 SVX LS-Tour (Yellow AWD 5-Speed)
09 Forester X Premium
The Creator of FrankenWedge
User avatar
Huck369
Moderator
 
Posts: 15559
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:34 am
Location: Somerset, KY

Re: Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Postby Hocrest on Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:42 am

Great news on Maureen!!!
Dave
-86 Brat ~ Rebecca
-92 SVX LS-L ~ Princess
-03 Baja ~ OutBrat
User avatar
Hocrest
Veteran
 
Posts: 2417
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:02 pm
Location: Cressona, PA

Re: Starter Connection? I'm an idiot??

Postby Myxalplyx on Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:25 am

Hocrest wrote:Great news on Maureen!!!


I'll second that Dave! That didn't 'sound' good as I was reading through it all.

In the meantime, Austin, what do you think may have contributed to the short in the wires? Just old age or wear and tear or something else?
Kevin Thomas
1989 2.7ltr XT6 AWD/Auto *WndCttr*
JC Sports Intake, Rallispec Header, Custom 2.5" exhaust with 2.5" Magnaflow muffler
Advanced Timing 32 degrees
ProECM Lightweight pulley
4.44 gears, LSD
User avatar
Myxalplyx
Moderator
 
Posts: 2769
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 8:55 pm
Location: New Castle, DE

PreviousNext

Return to Subaru XT discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests

cron